Minutes TAB call (November 20, 2015)

Time: 2pmET
Host confcall: OASIS
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Chat room: http://webconf.soaphub.org/conf/room/tab


1) Roll call

2) Continued discussion with Laurent on Self Certification at OASIS&;

3) AOB


1) Roll Call
Attending: Ashok, Chet, Jacques, Kevin, Patrick, and Laurent

2) Continued discussion

Laurent opened with his summary of where we are at in our deliberation. We believe it makes sense for OASIS to offer a framework to enable self-certification and for interested TCs to develop the test suites to be used for certification.

One benefit to TCs is that this would help increase the quality and implementability of specifications. Thinking through testing - even just drafting test assertions - in parallel with drafting a specification gets everyone thinking about how the spec can be implemented from the start.

A second benefit is that this would help increase adoption because implementors would have something clear to test their work against from the start.

One problem though is that this puts the burden on the TCs. If OASIS depends on the TCs to do the heavy lifting, it is going to be difficult for OASIS to charge for the self-serve in order to pay for the costs of the program.

Discussed possible business models, e.g. not charging OASIS members for certification, only non-members. Discussed using an existing TC as a case study, possibly UBL since it is extensively implemented.

Discussed Interop demos as a comparable activity. The experience there was that members did not want to share the limelight with non-members. We noted that this was more of an advertising opportunity - the same objection is not likely to apply to a self-certification program.

Laurent discussed how this initiative could fit in with the OASIS strategy of "one stop interop shop." We have a lot of the pieces to support that in place but certification is a missing piece.

Regarding open source, Jacques noted that OS projects are often lower in the stack than the types of projects undertaken at OASIS. So OASIS may have an opportunity to do work on top of what OS projects do.

Noted that a good use case would be helpful in explaining the opportunity, risks and approach to others. Jacques noted that for UBL, the PEPPOL govt procurement project in EU has worked on some testing ( http://www.peppol.eu/peppol-project/peppol-standards). We agreed to add a section to the white paper with a use case. Target to have it to Laurent the week of the 7th, a week ahead of the next board meeting on 12/16.

Ashok asked about holding interim meetings to draft this text. Chet agreed to set up a Doodle poll.

Next scheduled meeting is December 4th.

Minutes respectfully submitted by Chet Ensign on November 24th, 2015.

Chat log

anonymous morphed into Patrick
Chet - OASIS: Roll call:
Chet - OASIS: Jacques, Kevin, Ashok, Chet, Patrick, Laurent
Chet - OASIS: L: summarizing where we are at a high level - it would make sense for the TCs to develop test suites in a scenario where we as an org are offering a framework for self-cert
Chet - OASIS: L: 1st benefit was to increase the quality and implementability of the spec because thinking through testing during development helps improve the spec
jacques (Fujitsu): one often "ignored" aspect of standards that you catch when working on testing: error handling.
Chet - OASIS: L: 2nd benefit is that it would help increase the adoption because implementors would have something to test against
Chet - OASIS: L: 3rd benefit - if we ask the TCs to do the heavy lifting, it is going to be difficult for OASIS to jump in and charge for the self-serve.
Chet - OASIS: L: corection - a problem
Chet - OASIS: A: if we agree with this, then we should think about what it would take to start with, say, TOSCA - what would we have to prepare, what documents put in place, websites, etc. - one way of going forward on this.
Chet - OASIS: J: test assertions can be done in parallel with the spec as it evolves. So bulk of the benefit can be achieved by writing test assertions. Don't need the full cost of developing a test suite.
Patrick: What about not charging vendors who are members of the TC? That is participation gains no-charge access for certification, but hopefully the certification helps the spread of the specification across that particular domain. Either making money off of non-members and/or driving OASIS membership. The materials or OASIS hosting the certification certificate?
Chet - OASIS: P: using UBL as an example.
Kevin Mangold (NIST): I like Patrick's idea.
Chet - OASIS: P: either drives to revenue or to growth in membership.
Chet - OASIS: L: this goes to the heart of the business problem. Agree - one sustainable model is free to members as an additional benefit. Might even help with member retention. Then charge for outsiders.
Chet - OASIS: L: one experimental model has been our interop demos. rent great space at RSA and have 7 or 8 vendors who prepare interop demo of PKCS 11 and KMIP. OASIS members get at cost their portion of the booth. Non-members pay triple.
Chet - OASIS: L: ran idea past the members and they shot it down. They didn't want outsiders hogging the lime light and benefiting from the relationships developed among the participants.
Chet - OASIS: L: self-serve cert is probably different on a culture level - e.g. doesn't require any commaradarie.
Chet - OASIS: K: the interop is also more of marketing activity - very different from certification
Chet - OASIS: Correction - interop demo is a public, real-time advertising type of event
Chet - OASIS: C: would TCs object to funding self-cert if they saw a tangible benefit from it - e.g. help putting their test assertions and test harness together
Chet - OASIS: L: the agile model has changed things. the open source community moves faster - usually - that it seems like the worlds are at odds. seeing cases where the open source code becomes the de facto standard
Chet - OASIS: L: we saw this and realized our strategy needs to change.
Chet - OASIS: L: our strategy has been captured in the phrase "one-stop interop shop"
Chet - OASIS: L: if you want stuff to interoperate, you should be able to do that successfully at OASIS.
Chet - OASIS: L: e.g. - you want to do standards - or you want to do code - or you are an ad hoc group that wants to set up an initiative / alliance - you should be able to do it at OASIS
Chet - OASIS: L: that's where the self-cert idea comes in - that is a missing piece
Chet - OASIS: L: so for each of these types of initiatives we'll do a mini-business plan. we'll take the self-cert white paper and we'll put together a spread sheet to forecast costs and possible revenues
Chet - OASIS: J: interop sounds similar to a plug fest - typically these are pay-to-play events. Vendors gain knowledge on how to implement the standard and help shape it and identify weaknesses.
Chet - OASIS: So should we incorporate plug fests into this white paper?
Chet - OASIS: It sounds like we have a spectrum of activities - plug fests, interop demos, self-certification
Chet - OASIS: J: but there has to be a minimum of implementation out in the field to make interops viable
Chet - OASIS: J: real adoption comes when people outside the TC take it up.
Chet - OASIS: J: charging non-members could work against getting that to happen
Kevin Mangold (NIST): this "plug fest" idea is kind of similar to what i mentioned about interop being more a marketing/advertising event for vendors (particularly for non-OASIS members): "Hey, look my product, which is prettier than that company's, works with everyone elses!"
Chet - OASIS: J: implementation of a test tool could be done in a way that was reusable across multiple TCs / standards
Chet - OASIS: J: a lot of testing could work in a server-based model
Chet - OASIS: J: I see a recurring pattern here - test drivers and test frameworks could become an asset of OASIS
Chet - OASIS: J: regarding the perception of competition with open source - if we have a testing process, it will be appreciated by the open source community
Chet - OASIS: J: OS projects are typically infrastructure focused and lower in the stack - maybe below the sorts of activities that OASIS does (e.g. legalxml) is an area where open source unlikely to tackle.
Patrick: How would self-cert fit into the TC process? In one case, goes along with specification development, helps improve the specification (and markets it after completion) and in a second scenario it comes after the development of the specification and is primarily to drive adoption of a completed specification. Q: Is there a certification for UBL? Thinking a test suite of UBL documents with specified outcomes. We have in-house markup expertise and it could be low-level fruit for a certification effort.
Chet - OASIS: J: may be an opportunity for OASIS there.
Chet - OASIS: P: is UBL low-hanging fruit?
Chet - OASIS: P: we could use it as a guinea pig to see what it would take to put something in place.
Chet - OASIS: L: we're zeroing in on what could be done at the TC level and that has to be part of the business plan.
Chet - OASIS: L: board is supportive. however, they will immediately zero in on costs/risks/benefits - and want details on how exactly this would happen.
Chet - OASIS: L: so - how would this be done? how would it work?
Chet - OASIS: L: a use case would be very powerful in illustrating what we're talking about. This doc doesn't need to include a long term vision of how this would evolve. Rather let's focus on the ideal candidate.
Chet - OASIS: L: add a use case as an additional chapter
Chet - OASIS: L: a short description of how it was done
Chet - OASIS: L: next board meeting December 16th.
Chet - OASIS: L: could we have something added by then?
jacques (Fujitsu): UBL: the PEPPOL govt procurement project in EU has worked on some testing for some instance of it..
Chet - OASIS: C: we could look into UBL and ECF as possible case studies - chairs in both would be very happy to talk with us
Chet - OASIS: J: also UBL is a big tent - there's been testing for PEOPL e.g.
Chet - OASIS: Agree that we can probably have something to add in time
Chet - OASIS: Target Friday 12/4 to have an update to Laurent
jacques (Fujitsu): http://www.peppol.eu/peppol-project/peppol-standards
Chet - OASIS: A: thinking could we get some more meetings? Chet - I'll set up a doodle poll

20151120 (last edited 2015-12-03 15:16:54 by chet.ensign)